Chainmail Game System: Game Turns

[Secrets of Blackmoor]

I was contacted by Rdubs on Twitter about turn lengths and melee in Chainmail.

Since he was in a discussion on a service which does not archive well, I have suggested we move here so I can add some basic info for people to chew on and discuss. 

CM is most popular today because if it's connection to Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and D&D. I would not say it is the best medievals system out there from the time period as there are many. Yet, people really are interested in it. For myself I would likely choose to only do the massed combat, or simply use another system.

CM as published by G&K is three systems which are kludged together.

- Perrens massed combat, which I am pretty sure was derived from another set of rules. 
- The Man to man system
- The Fantasy system, which Jon Peterson showed is for the most part plagiarized from Leonard Patt's, Fantasy Game.

Each system reveals a different kind of resolution without being specific.

Perren's system, dubbed the LGTSA medieval rules, is actually best in its original from in the Domesday Book. The writing is clear anfd simple, and there aren't too many Gygaxian dangling provisional rules turning it into spaghetti code. Consider the rules are only eight pages long!

SCALE FOR FIGURES, DISTANCE, AND TIME

Right on the top of the first page the scale for minis is described as 40mmm elastiolin figures. The table scale is 1 inch = 10 yards. The time scale is 1 turn = 1 minute.

If you go to the published booklet for Chainmail it states the same scales while also mentioning the use of Airfix 25mm scale figures can also be used.

MELEE AND POST MELEE MORALE CHECKS

Melee combat is where things get interesting in terms of time. Each side rolls their attacks and inflicts casualties. Then both sides roll a die and multiply the number of remaining troops by the die roll. The player with the higher number wins the combat round and the opponent is forced to retreat. 

However, if there is less than a 10 point difference difference between the two side's totals the melee will continue next turn.

Chainmail expandso n the LGTSA rules and even calls the section 'post melee morale'.

Yet, the concepts are the same. You fight with dice and apply casualties, and then you check to see who stands and who flees.

MAN TO MAN RULES

Here you see a change in how combat works with such things as figures with longer weapons getting multiple attacks in one round, and figures in sieges being allowed to climb a ladder, conduct combat, and then advance to the top of the wall.

The language changes from 'combat turn', which I take to mean a single melee phase each turn for manned combat, to a 'melee round' of back and forth attacks during one turn. Yet, on a quick scan of these rules I did not see a specific limit to the number of combat rounds per turn. thus, it isn't quite like OD&D yet.

just to conclude:


While Gygax was enamored with Chainmail and applied it heavily in his edits of D&D, Arneson was likely not using CM that much. Yes, he used it, but it did not serve him well for doing an RPG. Of course, Gygax seems to concur since he then puts Arneson's RPG combat system into D&D.

Be careful when making assumptions in regard to these old rules. I see people use the concept of 10 turns to 10 one minute combat rounds which are then divided into an even more granular 6 second combat resolution round, because 10 by 10 by 10 makes sense, right?

No No No - Do not assume these things. Just observe what is being done in what system. Despite the overlaps as far as influence, these are all distinct. This is especially true when trying to untangle OD&D. So many sources went into OD&D that it is nearly impossible to make clear paths of influence. If anything, once you claim veracity on and single item you are heading down an avenue of faslehood.


All of this has likely been discussed in such forums as ODD74, which I can't seem to access anymore, and probably in archived discussions here.

Maybe someone who has more knowledge about these systems can post some links to this discussion.

Ciao, Griff

[Rdubs]

Thanks for the input.  I have some thoughts about this and a couple questions.


By 3rd edition Chainmail a result of 0 -19 is a result of immediate melee ( as it is stated that “lower total must immediately react as follows)

What I find interesting is the evolution of the post morale melee combined with the excessive casualties melee into the 1st Edition Morale table is structured into 4 rows with very similar results

What I find interesting is the evolution of the post morale melee combined with the excessive casualties melee into the 1st Edition Morale table is structured into 4 rows with very similar results

Of note is that 1 to 15 is also fall back with fighting which I find strikingly similar to melee continues and what I assume ended up being his intent.

I think it is also important to look at the Miscellaneous Melee considerations.  Here we see an item that is most likely familiar to modern wargamers.  3 is a consolidation move it seems and would allow a situation where a unit falls back within 3 inches of a supporting unit, the victor continues its charge and a melee round ensues which then allows a 6 inch move by the supporting unit into battle.



We finally get to Swords & Spells where he writes in up to 3 combat round which I find interesting due to fatigue in chainmail triggering on 3 combat rounds.


(Contributed by JeffroJohnson via Twitter)

If we look at contemporary sources we see similar systems that seem to prove this style of combat resolution was in favor at the time.




(Contributed by PurpleDruid via Discord)




(via PurpleDruid from Rules for Wargaming, Arthur Taylor, 1971)


All of this really does lead me to believe that the Immediate Melee option was intentional and meant to facilitate multiple combat rounds within the Move System Turn.



In OD&D we read specifically that Chainmail takes precedence unless overridden by one of the 3 Brown Books.  It seems that Underground combat is one of these times as it does state a 10 round combat limit.  However,  Land Combat specifically states that we should use Chainmail 1 to 1/RAW and I think we have enough evidence pointing to multiple melee Rounds per Turn.

As for my questions:

Do you have any contemporary scans that may help clarify the written rules?

Do you have any verbal history or notes that backup the interviews and other people's statements that Gary played one round of melee only in chainmail or land combat?

To be clear I am more interested in the game of Chainmail when it pertains to these questions than I am 0ed.

Finally.  When is and what is your next book?

Thanks man.

[Secrets of Blackmoor]

I posted a comment to the Chainmail Group on Facebook. I expect a fair number of players who actually played with Jeff and Gary would be there.

Mornard showed up and gave a fast response:

"Combat continues" is as opposed to the other results on that table. Page 15 says dice are rolled once by each player, casualties removed, and morale if necessary. Page 9 shows melee as end of the turn.
And last but not least, both Jeff and Gary played it one round of combat per turn.
Here endeth the lesson.

I played Cavaliers and Roundheads at GC this year. It followed the same format.

Remember, these are gamers coming out of 60's miniature wargaming tradition and using the methods established in that era. Multiple combat rounds is something coming out of D&D which is mid 70's.

Also, the game turn in CM and combat turns in OD&D are 1 minute.

[Rdubs]

Thanks for following up.

It is interesting because contemporary rule sets did allow for multiple melee rounds.

Would you ask them or show me where that Facebook group is? Because I'd like to know how they handled the melee option, combat round moves and wet part of the turn segment they use those rules.

There's enough in there written for multiple melee rounds that I definitely will be playing multiple rounds, but it seems that every source is saying Gary only played one.

What is your next product man?