The Dave Arneson's Blackmoor Discussion Forum



It is currently Aug 20, 2014 12:49 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 19, 2012 12:32 pm 
Offline
Lord of the Regency Council
Lord of the Regency Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 17, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 5082
Location: Norway, Europe
While I was thrilled to see AD&D 1st Edition being brought back into print, even if just as a limited print run, exclusively to a US audience, I was rather dismayed at how the announcement was phrased:

1st Edition Premium Player's Handbook
In 1974, the world changed forever when Gary Gygax introduced the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game. The legacy of his innovative ideas and the extensive reach of his powerful influence can be seen in virtually every facet of gaming today.
To help honor his work and his memory, we created limited-edition reprints of the original 1st Edition core rulebooks: the Monster Manual, Player's Handbook, and Dungeon Master's Guide. These premium versions of the original AD&D rulebooks have been lovingly reprinted with the original art and content, but feature an attractive new cover design commemorating this re-release. Available in limited quantities as a hobby channel exclusive in North America.
Your purchase of this monumental book helps support the Gygax Memorial Fund—established to immortalize the “Father of Roleplaying Games” with a memorial statue in Lake Geneva, WI.
Item Details
Item Code: 02410000
Release Date: April 17, 2012
Format: Hardcover
Page Count: 112
Price: $34.95
ISBN: 978-0-7869-6243-3


I think using this money to support the Gygax Memorial Fund is a great idea and a worthy cause. However, what happened to the other guy? Does he not deserve even to be mentioned even in the announcement? "the world changed forever when Gary Gygax introduced the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game"? "his innovative ideas and the extensive reach of his powerful influence can be seen in virtually every facet of gaming today?" Wasn't there another guy contributing with a couple of fairly essential ideas to this game as well? I'm not saying they have to build a statue of Dave or anything, but they could at least remember to give him credit for the game he was essential to help making 3 years after his passing.

http://blackmoormystara.blogspot.com/20 ... eator.html

_________________
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 19, 2012 1:00 pm 
Offline
Landed Lord
Landed Lord
User avatar

Joined: Jan 16, 2010 8:02 am
Posts: 468
Location: suburbs of Chicago
As was pointed out to me on the OD&D boards, technically AD&D was Gary's "baby" and not Dave's. I think this was part of that super-secret legal agreement thingie.

However, philosophically I agree with you 100%. If you're going to say anything like "back in 1974..." you really need to credit both authors and not just the one. :cry:

_________________
Marv / Finarvyn
Member of The Regency Council
Visit my Blackmoor OD&D board
OD&D since 1975

"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
- Dave Arneson

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 19, 2012 1:18 pm 
Offline
Lord of the Regency Council
Lord of the Regency Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 17, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 5082
Location: Norway, Europe
finarvyn wrote:
As was pointed out to me on the OD&D boards, technically AD&D was Gary's "baby" and not Dave's. I think this was part of that super-secret legal agreement thingie.


Well, part of the story behind AD&D was to cook up a way to sell the game without paying royalties to Arneson. That was the cause of the lawsuits in the first place. The final settlement between Dave and Gary made sure that Dave would be credited.

We dont really know the details of the deals WotC made with the two creators, but I assumed the point of that was simply to get WotC out of paying royalties to either creator, while the two were compensated for that.

Quote:
However, philosophically I agree with you 100%. If you're going to say anything like "back in 1974..." you really need to credit both authors and not just the one. :cry:


Yep, that's the core of it.

-Havard

_________________
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 19, 2012 2:49 pm 
Offline
Baronette
Baronette
User avatar

Joined: Feb 01, 2010 11:59 am
Posts: 635
Location: Schenectady
Heh, I noticed that too but wasn't going to say anything. Business as usuall, TSR style.

I find the realease of AD&D interesting on several levels. For one, it kinda torpedoes OSRIC (not something I'm likely to shed any tears over).

But it also brings up a question of why? With 5e in the works, I think its a deliberate attempt to show young and curious gamers how "bad" the "old games" were. Wotc may be banking on the prediction that Gygaxs awful and decidedly unfamiliar prose coupled with the complexity and arbitraryness of AD&D, will allow them to convince gamers how much fantastically better 5e will be, and how they should pay no mind to that OSR stuff. At the same time, they can make AD&D part of the 5e conversation and cherry pick whatever they like all while seemingly releasing the product under altruistic intetions to benefit a charity of interest to gamers.
:roll:

_________________
"The gamemaster may find that sometimes it is a good idea to just let the unexpected lead where it will.â€


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 5:16 am 
Offline
Rafael - Retired Admin, sailing on the "Mordred".
Rafael - Retired Admin, sailing on the "Mordred".
User avatar

Joined: Nov 19, 2009 6:47 am
Posts: 5070
Location: Kingdom of Angria
Actually, considering the circumstances, I am okay with that statement.

Because technically, it's correct, though it suggests a false semantical background.

But I can see their point of view: If they credit Arneson, what about Don Kaye, or Jeff Perrin?

They have at least a moral claim on the development of the game as well. :?



Now, I won't hide that I would very much welcome an act to commemorate Arneson as well,
but, hey, probably, we'll see that in time.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 20, 2012 5:16 am 
Offline
Rafael - Retired Admin, sailing on the "Mordred".
Rafael - Retired Admin, sailing on the "Mordred".
User avatar

Joined: Nov 19, 2009 6:47 am
Posts: 5070
Location: Kingdom of Angria
I mean, let's not forget that only a few months ago, this announcement would have been equal to "hell just froze over".

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 21, 2012 10:27 am 
Offline
Yeoman
Yeoman
User avatar

Joined: Nov 16, 2011 10:32 pm
Posts: 33
I think before its all over we will all be shocked at the heights WOTC will soar in order to make a buck. It's about damn time.

Classic or even OD&D will be next I'm sure.


Because ALL of these will sell like crazy and not only gut there competition and get everyone playing D&D regardless of edition. We just might see 3.5 out again just before 5E hits the stores just to further degrade there competitions hold on the market.


Frankly I am all for this. I do not fault them for trying to make a buck or a million and I sure do want to see those books back in print.


It's about time the Evil Overlord mentality was at least figuratively done away with. There PR couldn't have been worse.



As far as Dave goes. Not crediting him for the AD&D game is fine, but the wording was a little stretch. I will forgive them for it as long as when the Classic box sets are re-released he gets equal billing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 24, 2012 7:22 pm 
Offline
Landed Lord
Landed Lord
User avatar

Joined: Jan 16, 2010 8:02 am
Posts: 468
Location: suburbs of Chicago
Le Noir Faineant wrote:
But I can see their point of view: If they credit Arneson, what about Don Kaye, or Jeff Perrin?
I would say that the big difference is that Dave Arneson's name does appear on the original 1974 product and neither Don or Jeff's does. Whatever the feeling are after the fact, it remains true that in 1974 Gary thought enough of Dave's contributions to give him co-author credits at the time.

_________________
Marv / Finarvyn
Member of The Regency Council
Visit my Blackmoor OD&D board
OD&D since 1975

"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
- Dave Arneson

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 24, 2012 7:54 pm 
Offline
Rafael - Retired Admin, sailing on the "Mordred".
Rafael - Retired Admin, sailing on the "Mordred".
User avatar

Joined: Nov 19, 2009 6:47 am
Posts: 5070
Location: Kingdom of Angria
Oh, let me clarify, I think you're absolutely right.

If Wizards handled their stuff responsibly, they would have to mention Arneson.

If.



Now, I can see where they are coming from. D&D had not two dads, but at least ten.

Giving everyone the respect he deserves, they would be honoring and dedicating, endlessly.


Now, this stuff here is certainly bad style.

I suspect they want to dodge the question why there is no Arneson memorial.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: WotC Fails to Credit D&D Co-Creator.
PostPosted: Jan 27, 2012 7:45 am 
Offline
Lord of the Regency Council
Lord of the Regency Council
User avatar

Joined: Nov 17, 2009 2:48 pm
Posts: 5082
Location: Norway, Europe
Le Noir Faineant wrote:
Oh, let me clarify, I think you're absolutely right.

If Wizards handled their stuff responsibly, they would have to mention Arneson.

If.


I think this is more of an oversight to be honest. I could see plenty of situations where it might be natural to mention Gygax and not Arneson, but 1974 is not one of them.



Quote:
Now, I can see where they are coming from. D&D had not two dads, but at least ten.

Giving everyone the respect he deserves, they would be honoring and dedicating, endlessly.


Only two individuals are credited as the creators of the game. While others have certainly helped even in the early stages, these never made claim to that title, recognizing themselves that while their efforts may have been important, it was secondary to that of the two creators. But I dont think these others factor into that text at all.


Quote:
I suspect they want to dodge the question why there is no Arneson memorial.


A memorial to both creators would be awesome, but I think a statue of Gygax alone is justifiable given the man's effort not just in creating the game, but also in his continued effort over the years for the hobby. Ultimately, WotC is simply supporting an initiative that is not theirs. If someone set up an initiative to build some memorial to Dave, WotC might even be persuaded to support that as well? If it didnt cost them much and would be believed to give them good PR they would probably do it.

-Havard

_________________
Currently Running: The Blackmoor Vales Saga
Currently Playing: Daniel S. Debelfry in the Throne of Star's Campaign


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Copyright © The Comeback Inn
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group