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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Nov 26, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Possibly the Burrowers (a bit like the Egg of Coot) have various grades of "awakwness" and Keres woke them up to a decent (but not full) grade, then they slowly went back to "sleep" across few centuries.
If it was a war of conquest of Keres + Burrowers + Qullans against "the rest of the world", it would have been pretty short (no more than few years, not centuries for sure), unless the rest of the word has comparable weapons and strength...

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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Nov 27, 2012 5:50 pm 
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Yaztromo wrote:
Possibly the Burrowers (a bit like the Egg of Coot) have various grades of "awakwness" and Keres woke them up to a decent (but not full) grade, then they slowly went back to "sleep" across few centuries.
If it was a war of conquest of Keres + Burrowers + Qullans against "the rest of the world", it would have been pretty short (no more than few years, not centuries for sure), unless the rest of the word has comparable weapons and strength...


I was thinking some more about this.

From how I understand canon sources on the matter, the Immortals intervened and put the Burrowers to sleep.

However, your questions did lead me to think about the process leading up to that point. Perhaps Khoronus' action wasn't what ended the war. Rather, with the mind link between Keres and the Burrowers gone, each Burrower began working towards its own agenda.

So instead of having two sides to the conflict, you would now have multiple groups, each following the direction of different Burrowers. Also, not everyone fell prey to the Burrowers, so you could have individual tribes suddenly going insane and be defeated, only to have a new group go crazy a few years later?

This way, the whole thing would seem much more like an arbitrary series of events over a few violent centuries, unless you knew that the Burrowers were behind it all?

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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Nov 27, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Possibly Khoronus action started the "proper" Burrowers wars as a war with all Burrowers (awake) on Keres' side would have been extremely short (who could resist him?).
Possibly the centuries long war was the subsequent, with all Burrowers having their armies (Egg of Coot style, after all) and using them against one another.

I'd expect the immortals intervening directly in this kind of situation only if there was a Burrower gradually "winning" over other ones and trying tp "unify" them under its command.
Maybe unified Burrowers can potentially summon Outer Beings? :idea:
THAT would be a good reason to intervene directly on the Prime plane and with the approval of (more or less) all the other immortals...

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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Dec 03, 2012 9:42 am 
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Yaztromo wrote:
Possibly Khoronus action started the "proper" Burrowers wars as a war with all Burrowers (awake) on Keres' side would have been extremely short (who could resist him?).
Possibly the centuries long war was the subsequent, with all Burrowers having their armies (Egg of Coot style, after all) and using them against one another.



Yeah, this makes sense actually. I may go around and revise some of the previous material to include this. so Khoronus doesnt actually stop the Burrower Wars, but prevents the immediate destruction of the world, while the disorganized forces of the individual Burrowers now turn upon eachother resulting in the actual wars.


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I'd expect the immortals intervening directly in this kind of situation only if there was a Burrower gradually "winning" over other ones and trying tp "unify" them under its command.
Maybe unified Burrowers can potentially summon Outer Beings? :idea:
THAT would be a good reason to intervene directly on the Prime plane and with the approval of (more or less) all the other immortals...



Yep, that works very well with previous fan material. Perhaps this Burrower becoming the lord of the Burrowers could be Iscranin, mentioned in my first Burrower Wars article? He is the only named Burrower from that era.


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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Dec 03, 2012 2:56 pm 
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Sounds good :wink:



BTW, if you have a look at this FanGazzetteer of Hyboria: http://www.roberto.roma.it/FORUM/download.asp?GET=http://www.roberto.roma.it/public/download/Hyborea.pdf (sorry, it's in Italian 8) ...and looks awesome 8) ) at page 7 you'll find that, on year 662 Before Crowning, a huge monster of colossal dimensions (as big as a mountain) briefly came out of a major crevass, before going back "to sleep", never to be seen again.
The monster was called Ufloq by the few surviving witnesses' tribes and its description could definitely match that of a Burrower.

Could this be of interest for you? I'm not sure about where this detail has been taken from, but looks like to me that all the material in this FanGazzetteer is derived from either canon or fanon sources...

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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Dec 03, 2012 6:19 pm 
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This way the Qullans would be still enrolled as a Burrower's troop (the Egg of Coot)? Faithful for so many millennia?
However, if I remember properly, the Egg doesn't trust them excessively... not exactly the picture of faithful troops, on its side... the rebellious blood of Keres?

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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Dec 04, 2012 8:22 am 
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Yaztromo wrote:
Sounds good :wink:

BTW, if you have a look at this FanGazzetteer of Hyboria: http://www.roberto.roma.it/FORUM/download.asp?GET=http://www.roberto.roma.it/public/download/Hyborea.pdf (sorry, it's in Italian 8) ...and looks awesome 8) ) at page 7 you'll find that, on year 662 Before Crowning, a huge monster of colossal dimensions (as big as a mountain) briefly came out of a major crevass, before going back "to sleep", never to be seen again.
The monster was called Ufloq by the few surviving witnesses' tribes and its description could definitely match that of a Burrower.

Could this be of interest for you? I'm not sure about where this detail has been taken from, but looks like to me that all the material in this FanGazzetteer is derived from either canon or fanon sources...


Cool! I think the Italian Gaz is based on the fan works of SB Wilson from Pandius.com. SB Wilson is an excellent chap over at The Piazza and integrating his ideas would be cool.

Thanks for mentioning the Burrower in particular. He may very well be involved here.

We may also want to check the HWA Trilogy adventures by Allen Varney. They feature the Burrowers quite heavily and there may be named individuals there (or not).


Yaztromo wrote:
This way the Qullans would be still enrolled as a Burrower's troop (the Egg of Coot)? Faithful for so many millennia?
However, if I remember properly, the Egg doesn't trust them excessively... not exactly the picture of faithful troops, on its side... the rebellious blood of Keres?



Possibly, or perhaps the Egg fears that the Qullans are loyal to another, yet sleeping Burrower?*



*=Note that I don't see the Egg as a Burrower per se, but some similar creature...



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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Dec 04, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Havard wrote:
They feature the Burrowers quite heavily and there may be named individuals there (or not).


Not 110% sure if Burrowers should have proper names known to the people... maybe they could tell their own names to humans when they send their dreams, but doesn't look like a high chance occurrence to me.
After all, creatures that live in solitude for several millennia, mostly in lethargy, with no need to communicate with peers (I assume that names were invented to distinguish yourself from another one within a community...), may not feel the need to have a name and, even more, to introduce themselves with their name to somebody else (shaking hands? :shock: ).... what do you think?
Maybe the names are given by the humans to them, but they don't necessarily need to be something recognized/accepted by the Burrower...
(of course the alternative is no less interesting, i.e. the Burrowers are actually a community, that evolves and interacts very, very, very slowly... and this could explain their wars for primacy and their collective ability to summon Outer Beings...)

On the other hand, the Egg of Coot is a name (strange, but a name)...

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Last edited by Yaztromo on Dec 04, 2012 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Dec 04, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Havard wrote:
*=Note that I don't see the Egg as a Burrower per se, but some similar creature...


I wouldn't say that there is a clearly defined "Burrower" race, but Greater and Lesser Servitors of the Outer Beings and each Servitor may well be significantly different from the others under many points of view.
"Burrower" could be simply a way to call these Servitors.

At the end, the Egg of Coot is simply doing the same things that the Burrowers did during the Burrowers Wars, isn't it? Maybe he was active at the same time of the Burrowers, maybe not. Maybe it just "woke up" in different times...

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 Post subject: Re: [Blog] The Burrower Wars Part III: Life of Keres
PostPosted: Dec 04, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Yaztromo wrote:
I wouldn't say that there is a clearly defined "Burrower" race, but Greater and Lesser Servitors of the Outer Beings and each Servitor may well be significantly different from the others under many points of view.
"Burrower" could be simply a way to call these Servitors.

At the end, the Egg of Coot is simply doing the same things that the Burrowers did during the Burrowers Wars, isn't it? Maybe he was active at the same time of the Burrowers, maybe not. Maybe it just "woke up" in different times...


Sounds like we are pretty much on the same page here 8)

By Burrower I understand a kind of digging creatures similar to the Great Annelids, but in terms of the Burrower Wars themselves, I agree that there could be other similar Servitor type creatures active.

I think I am going to steal an idea from Cab, a poster over at The Piazza and say that Zargon (from B4) and maybe even Kartoeba (from B10) may also have been active during this era.


Another creature I think it might be interesting to tie in is Ulgurshek, a Draeden introduced in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss. Ulgurshek is trapped in the Abyss (or Mystara equivalent, probably Pyts), but perhaps he can somehow reach the Prime Plane?




Just thinking out loud here really...

-Havard

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