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PostPosted: Mar 17, 2010 11:19 am 
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Knight
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Rafael wrote:
:) Not sure if this was already part of the earlier question, but did you also have some trademark Blackmoor character? :)


No, I didn't; sorry!

yours, Chirine

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PostPosted: Mar 17, 2010 3:05 pm 
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chirine ba kal wrote:
Aldarron wrote:
Hey Chirine,

I asked an EPT question regarding the one minute round on the ODD74 forum you might know the answer to. http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?ac ... 375&page=1 It may relate to how Dave was handling rounds in Blackmoor too. Any Thoughts?


I do happen to know the answer to this one; may I suggest having a look at a copy of the original "Chainmail" which, back in those ancient days of yore, was the standard set of miniatures combat rules here in the Upper Midwest:

"The ratio of figures to assumed is 1:20, the ground scale is 1":10 yards, and one turn of play is roughly equivalent to one minute of time in battle."

Everybody associated with the Castle and Crusade Society used these rules back then, as the WRG rules sets were very hard to get as you had to send off to some mythical place called "England" to have them mailed to you. As far as I know, the original RPG game sessions used "Chainmail" with the man-to-man rules, and everybody used the one minute round as the standard. From there, it got into the RPG rules that came out of those games.

Does this help, or am I making things more confused?

yours, Chirine


Well, the thing I'm not sure about really is whether a round means one dice roll or two, meaning does the EPT 1 minute round have one roll for the attacker and one counterattack for the defender, or does it just have one roll for the attacker, followed by a whole new 1 minute round for the defenders counter attack. Here's the quote from EPT that I'm refering to:

"combat rounds are fought in pairs: one for the attacker..., one for the defender. Thus, if the defender is slain during the attacker's round, he still gets a chance to strike a "dying blow" on his last round."

This makes it sound like both attacker and defender get a full seperate minute/round. If the defender who is killed gets a full attack round, then no combat can last less than an average of 2 minutes, since a round averages 1 minute.


The other complication is that "A fighter always gets to strike during any combat round..." meaning presumably that they attack either 10 times in a 10 minute turn where other characters attack 5 times, or they attack 20 times when most characters attack 10.

BTW, I've looked in the AD&D books, both 1e and 2e and it's as clear as mud there too.

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PostPosted: Mar 17, 2010 10:13 pm 
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Knight
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Aldarron wrote:
chirine ba kal wrote:
Aldarron wrote:
Hey Chirine,

I asked an EPT question regarding the one minute round on the ODD74 forum you might know the answer to. http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?ac ... 375&page=1 It may relate to how Dave was handling rounds in Blackmoor too. Any Thoughts?


I do happen to know the answer to this one; may I suggest having a look at a copy of the original "Chainmail" which, back in those ancient days of yore, was the standard set of miniatures combat rules here in the Upper Midwest:

"The ratio of figures to assumed is 1:20, the ground scale is 1":10 yards, and one turn of play is roughly equivalent to one minute of time in battle."

Everybody associated with the Castle and Crusade Society used these rules back then, as the WRG rules sets were very hard to get as you had to send off to some mythical place called "England" to have them mailed to you. As far as I know, the original RPG game sessions used "Chainmail" with the man-to-man rules, and everybody used the one minute round as the standard. From there, it got into the RPG rules that came out of those games.

Does this help, or am I making things more confused?

yours, Chirine


Well, the thing I'm not sure about really is whether a round means one dice roll or two, meaning does the EPT 1 minute round have one roll for the attacker and one counterattack for the defender, or does it just have one roll for the attacker, followed by a whole new 1 minute round for the defenders counter attack. Here's the quote from EPT that I'm refering to:

"combat rounds are fought in pairs: one for the attacker..., one for the defender. Thus, if the defender is slain during the attacker's round, he still gets a chance to strike a "dying blow" on his last round."

This makes it sound like both attacker and defender get a full seperate minute/round. If the defender who is killed gets a full attack round, then no combat can last less than an average of 2 minutes, since a round averages 1 minute.


The other complication is that "A fighter always gets to strike during any combat round..." meaning presumably that they attack either 10 times in a 10 minute turn where other characters attack 5 times, or they attack 20 times when most characters attack 10.

BTW, I've looked in the AD&D books, both 1e and 2e and it's as clear as mud there too.


Okay; I see what you're getting at.

The 'combat round', at least the way both Dave and Phil played it, was that each 'combat round' consisted of one dice roll per person or creature engaged in the combat; each player would roll to see if they hit their target and do damage. Usually, they'd do it with the 'attacker' in the melee striking first, with the 'defender' then rolling; both Dave and Phil would allow the defender to choose between attacking back or trying to parry the blow. The 'round' would consist of a set of dice rolls for each attacker and defender, as well as any other actions by parties not engaged in the actual melee.

The EPT variations on this were basically that the longest weapon stuck first, no matter who held it, and that multiple-limbed beings could attack with each weapon held in a limb; it's what made Ahoggya and Pe Choi so deadly in individual combat, as they'd get twice the number of strike per turn as any humans.

Example:

Chirine and Vrisa are attacking a human and a Pe Choi. Both Chirine and Vrisa have their two-handed swords, and attack first as the human has a mace and the Pe Choi has a mace and a dagger, along with two of the small buckers they favor; the human also has a shield.

First Round: Chirine and Vrisa roll to hit; Chirine hits, and rolls damage dice; the human rolls to hit back, and missed (to Phil's annoyance). Vrisa missed, and the Pe Choi rolls twice, once for each weapon; it misses with the dagger, and nicks Vrisa with the sword.

Second Round: Vrisa gets mad, and hits the Pe Choi with a mighty blow, dropping the insectoid; it, however, gets a dying blow with each weapon (Phil rolls very well), and Vrisa gets cut up a bit. Chirine, trying to see if Vrisa is in danger, misses the dice roll and misses his opponent; opponent nails Chrine up the side of his head with his mace, and Chirine drops. Origo, the magic user behind Chirine, rolls to hit the human with his Eye of Sheer Annoyance, misses and nearly fries Vrisa in the back blast.

Third Round: Vrisa swings at the human and hits, and the human chooses to aim his dying blow at Origo; he hits, doing the unarmored priest of Ksarul quite a bit of damage. Origo, in his return blow, sticks his dagger into the human fighter, finishing him off. Kayalen rolls to see if she can drag Chirine out of the combat, and misses her dice roll.

Fourth Round: Vrisa, seeing Origo getting hit, swings again and really messes up the human; being already dead, he doesn't get a return blow. Kayalen rolls again, and this time makes her roll and drags Chirine out of the melee.

Fifth Round: Kayalen rolls to see if her healing spell fixes up Chirine; Origo rolls to use his Eye of Healing on himself; Vrisa applies various banadages and needles Chirine about not being able to kill some git with a mace.

Does this help?

yours, Chirine

_________________
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"My Lord, they're calling you a 'peasant'! Are you offended?"
"Nope. When you're an Imperial Governor, you usually get called *much* worse things..."


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PostPosted: Mar 18, 2010 7:55 am 
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Baronette
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chirine ba kal wrote:

Okay; I see what you're getting at.

The 'combat round', at least the way both Dave and Phil played it, was that each 'combat round' consisted of one dice roll per person or creature engaged in the combat; each player would roll to see if they hit their target and do damage. Usually, they'd do it with the 'attacker' in the melee striking first, with the 'defender' then rolling; both Dave and Phil would allow the defender to choose between attacking back or trying to parry the blow. The 'round' would consist of a set of dice rolls for each attacker and defender, as well as any other actions by parties not engaged in the actual melee.

The EPT variations on this were basically that the longest weapon stuck first, no matter who held it, and that multiple-limbed beings could attack with each weapon held in a limb; it's what made Ahoggya and Pe Choi so deadly in individual combat, as they'd get twice the number of strike per turn as any humans.

Example:

Chirine and Vrisa are attacking a human and a Pe Choi. Both Chirine and Vrisa have their two-handed swords, and attack first as the human has a mace and the Pe Choi has a mace and a dagger, along with two of the small buckers they favor; the human also has a shield.

First Round: Chirine and Vrisa roll to hit; Chirine hits, and rolls damage dice; the human rolls to hit back, and missed (to Phil's annoyance). Vrisa missed, and the Pe Choi rolls twice, once for each weapon; it misses with the dagger, and nicks Vrisa with the sword.

Second Round: Vrisa gets mad, and hits the Pe Choi with a mighty blow, dropping the insectoid; it, however, gets a dying blow with each weapon (Phil rolls very well), and Vrisa gets cut up a bit. Chirine, trying to see if Vrisa is in danger, misses the dice roll and misses his opponent; opponent nails Chrine up the side of his head with his mace, and Chirine drops. Origo, the magic user behind Chirine, rolls to hit the human with his Eye of Sheer Annoyance, misses and nearly fries Vrisa in the back blast.

Third Round: Vrisa swings at the human and hits, and the human chooses to aim his dying blow at Origo; he hits, doing the unarmored priest of Ksarul quite a bit of damage. Origo, in his return blow, sticks his dagger into the human fighter, finishing him off. Kayalen rolls to see if she can drag Chirine out of the combat, and misses her dice roll.

Fourth Round: Vrisa, seeing Origo getting hit, swings again and really messes up the human; being already dead, he doesn't get a return blow. Kayalen rolls again, and this time makes her roll and drags Chirine out of the melee.

Fifth Round: Kayalen rolls to see if her healing spell fixes up Chirine; Origo rolls to use his Eye of Healing on himself; Vrisa applies various banadages and needles Chirine about not being able to kill some git with a mace.

Does this help?

yours, Chirine


Beautiful! Thanks Jeff! That's interesting about the parry though. Mechanically, how does that work? Is it a bonus to a to hit roll?

Edit: Code fixed, -Havard :)

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PostPosted: Mar 19, 2010 9:29 am 
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Knight
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Aldarron wrote:
Beautiful! Thanks Jeff! That's interesting about the parry though. Mechanically, how does that work? Is it a bonus to a to hit roll?


I'm glad you like this; I had hoped that it would explain things better. It's a good example of the way game play flowed with both early D&D and EPT.

I think the parry is a bonus on the 'to hit' roll; I'd have to look at the specific game rules to be sure. Phil used to base the bonus on the 'Dexterity' number that one rolled for the character, with a higher dexterity giving a better chance to parry the oncoming blow.

yours, Chirine

Edit: Code fixed, -Havard :)

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"My Lord, they're calling you a 'peasant'! Are you offended?"
"Nope. When you're an Imperial Governor, you usually get called *much* worse things..."


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PostPosted: Apr 12, 2010 6:15 am 
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Rowell the Blade
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Please tell me a bit about Captain Harchar! :)

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PostPosted: Apr 12, 2010 8:11 am 
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Knight
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Rafael wrote:
Please tell me a bit about Captain Harchar! :)


Sure; happy to!

This was back in the days of the original Thursday Night Group; we'd been playing as a separate group at Phil's since late 1978 or early 1979, as was metntioned in Gary Fine's book, and Phil was getting ready to ship us off to the Southern Continent out at the far western end of the maps as part of his development of the story arc for his novels. Our little jaunt is mentioned at the end of "Man of Gold", and Phil used our voyage as a way to organize the information that was later used in "Lords of Tsamra". We were getting the party organized when I pointed out that walking to our supposed destination wasn't going to be an option, and that we needed to hire a ship, a crew, and a captain to get us across Tekumel. Phil got a funny look on his face, like he always did when I raised a question that he hadn't thought about, and suggested to me that I'd better start researching ships; he didn't have anything written up, so I was going to have to play naval architect for him.

So, the next day (Friday) Ken Fletcher and I are at Adventure Games, and we brace Dave up about what he knows about ancient and medieval ships and shipping; Dave was an acknowledged expert on the Golden Age of Sail, and I figured that we might as well get the best possible advice on what we might have to deal with. Dave rooted around in his extensive library and come up with a few books on the subject, and I happened to mention that we also needed some information on crewing as we needed to hire a captain and crew for our ship. Dave got a funny look on his face, and said he'd see what he could do.

The next Thursday comes around, and we get to Phil's; he's acting all mysterious and secretive, and we head into the basement game room with great misgivings. Much to all of our surprise, there's Dave, sitting at Phil's right hand in the seat of honor, and he's busy with a copy of EPT rolling up a character and some NPCs. It turns out that he's called Phil and offered his services as our captain, and Phil's accepted; the captain's name was Harchar, of the Blazoned Sail Clan, and Dave had also rolled up three ship's mates and a purser, just like a regular cruise ship.

(Following our group's tradition, I did up miniature figures for all of them; the mates were originally named 'Staffswinger', 'Swordswinger', and 'Fishface' after the Ral Partha figures I used, and the purser was 'Hardtack'. Harchar himself was a Garrison figure; we still have all of them in the collection, and they were on the table on Saturday for the event.)

I'd gotten the ship's plans roughed out, and Dave made some modifications which Phil approved; it was really obvious that Phil was more then a little awed by Dave's nautical expertise, and for his part Dave was pretty awed by Phil's creation of Tekumel. The rest of us were all in shock that we were going to have DAVE ARNESON (!!!) in our little group as a regular player; it was A Very Big Deal, as we were the only RPG group that Dave actually played in at the time.

I should also mention that Dave and I shared a love of the classic Hollywood 'swashbuckler' and pirate movies from the 1940's and 1950's, and we kind of assumed that we were off on an adventure in the same vein. Sure enough, Dave played Harchar that way, and it was like having our own pirate movie being played out at the table. Dave, like Phil, was a pretty good actor, and Harchar was both a good sea captain and a loveable rogue of a buccaneer - er, "honest merchant seafarer", in Dave's own words - who was loyal to his crew and to nobody else. He was also one of the most efficient smugglers on Tekumel's sea's, with a deal going in every port along the shores of both continents and arrest warrants to match in the hands of every customs official you can imagine.

The very first day out of harbor, we got out of sight of land and Dave starts spouting all sorts of nautical jargon. He had Phil completely baffled, and it took me a while to figure out that he was having the crew send down all of the yards and spars to the deck and reconfiguring them; Dave was changing the ship's rig from a square-rigger to a lateen-rigger, not to get any advantage in sailing but to disguise the ship from nosy passers-by. It took Phil hours to figure it out, and later on Dave slipped another one past Phil when he innocently asked if he could paint the ship; "What color?" says Phil, and Dave innocently says "Oh, I thought a nice haze grey." "Grey," says Phil, "why grey?" "Just an ordinary maritime precaution," said Dave, who had figured out that Phil knew nothing about why naval ships are painted grey.

We sailed with Harchar on several sea voyages, which involved us in all sorts of adventures, including a visit to Blackmoor where Dave and Phil switched seats at the game table in both a literal and figurative sense. We travelled all of the seas on the four maps of Tekumel that Phil had done, as well as some of the areas that were off the map entirely. I took notes all along the way, as I normally did, and Phil's copy of these were used in the later novels.

Harchar was such a memorable character that Phil wrote him and his merry crew of smugglers, buccaneers, pirates, and accountants into all of his novels starting with "Flamesong"; with his beard and Cheshire Cat grin, Dave even looked the part of the dashing swashbucker and sea captain, and I have to say that I am very sure that he really enjoyed the role. Having Dave as player was fun, exciting, and dangerous; we never knew what side deals and nefarious schemes Harchar had going, or when we'd be forced to defend the ship from somebody he'd been dealing with. It was some of the very best gaming I've ever had, and Phil enjoyed it just as much; Dave kept him on his toes the whole time, and always managed to surprise Phil.

It was a wonder to behold, and I think I'm very fortunate to have seen it all happen.

Does this answer your question or help? I'm never sure...

yours, Chirine

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"Nope. When you're an Imperial Governor, you usually get called *much* worse things..."


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PostPosted: Apr 12, 2010 8:46 am 
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I've just read through the whole thread - these posts are pure gold! :)


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PostPosted: Sep 05, 2010 4:25 pm 
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Knight
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For everyone's amusement, I have posted some pictures on my Photobucket page of the some of the figures I did for Prof. Barker's EPT / Tekumel game campaign:

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk72/Chirine_ba_Kal/

Amongst the usual suspects are some "honest seafaring merchants"; Dave's Capt. Harchar and three of his four henchpersons / officers.

Happy Holiday!

yours, Chirine

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"My Lord, they're calling you a 'peasant'! Are you offended?"
"Nope. When you're an Imperial Governor, you usually get called *much* worse things..."


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PostPosted: Sep 05, 2010 4:53 pm 
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Those pictures are really cool. :)

Nice game room, too.

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